Discourse Rock Discourse | Hamburg School: "I thought we had more in common"

I'm delighted that we can take the Hamburg School discourse out of the anonymity of social media and bring it back to the pub. We're here at the "Mutter" (Mother), where musicians still meet today. In the 1990s, it's said that the exchange took place primarily at the bar. In which pubs were you most likely to be found back then?

Ebba Durstewitz: For me, it started with "Casper's Ballroom." That was partly because there was a Lower Saxon group there—I'm from Nordhorn, after all.

Bernd Begemann: I spent a lot of time at the "Pudel," the "Heinz Karmers," and the "Sorgenbrecher." What a laboratory! The mixed tapes were also important: One minute you were listening to blasting rock-funk, and then Manfred Krug came along with "Wenn ich dich seh'." It all belonged together; there was no contradiction.

Durstewitz: Yes, to paraphrase the band Mutter : "The main thing is music!" We absorbed all of that. Although I then realized, in the reception of JaKönigJa, that the doors were still closed. The boxes immediately opened: glockenspiel = "Sesame Street," banjo = country music, cello = chamber pop. How I hated that!

Begemann : I was so happy when I heard you for the first time.

Durstewitz : We initially played at the "Pudel" and then the first album came out. There were people who were downright shocked that we weren't being ironic. I can actually remember a situation where I thought Roberto Ohrt was going to punch me. He hated our music and said, "You disgust me! This is the worst thing ever."

Begemann: Men make rock – that was the motto. You were the opposite and opened up a different dimension. Indie rock stood for pimply guys who make the rules.

But weren't JaKönigJa something like the house band at the "Pudel", one of the most important scene venues in the city?

Durstewitz : Yes, but that only lasted for two and a half months. Nevertheless, it was always emphasized. And at some point, the term "Hamburg School" emerged, although in my perception, it came from outside.

Knarf Rellöm: Yes, no musician said that. We also thought that such a label would only be good for some bands. Because people might think that owning one Blumfeld record and one Tocotronic record is enough. Categorizing them is always too narrow anyway.

Begemann: I never thought of the "Hamburg School" as a label. Bands for which no one has a term have a harder time in the long run, I think. But now I've had to learn that the term is a label after all. I learned so much in the shadow of this NDR documentary ("The Hamburg School – Music Scene Between Pop and Politics" by Natascha Geier, two 30-minute segments, ARD Mediathek – ed.). Now I've come to the conclusion that one has to differentiate between the scene in Hamburg at that time and the term "Hamburg School."

What was the unifying element of this scene in which you were involved?

Rellöm: For me, the exchange was key. An anecdote comes to mind: I went to Michael Ruff's record store back then, who was also the singer in the band Geisterfahrer. That was the generation before us. Anyway, one day he said to me: "You're one of them too, Tocotronic and all – you all like each other, right? Funny, we all hated each other back then."

Ebba, how would you define the term “Hamburg School”?

Durstewitz: The thing is, this classification happens in retrospect. So, only now am I even thinking about this term, which I always rejected in the past. From today's perspective, I would say that the Hamburg School was first and foremost a social structure—with the emphasis on "social." Because, despite all the hurt, I can still remember how we helped each other. And there was a shared system of values: We at least agreed on how we didn't want to live.

Begemann: For me, the common denominator was a focus on the environment, not the genre. It wasn't about delivering a decent heavy metal record. The question was what surrounds us. We created a radically genre-shifting contemporary pop.

Isn’t that also a reflection on a situation, i.e. a discourse, and thus a question of attitude?

B egemann : Yes, but I'm referring more to an aesthetic than a political stance. The relationship between music and politics would require a longer discussion. But okay, I'll come clean: for me, music is best when it transcends politics. I believe that music stands far above politics and that the best politics serves music. That has always been my guiding principle. But what I still don't understand is why people suddenly started accusing me of being "bourgeois."

Rellöm : But we have to deal with that!

Be gemann : Yes, I did. But "bourgeois" is the most ridiculous insult ever. We're all citizens and we pay taxes. We're all beneficiaries of this "pig system." Why did I have to listen to all this nonsense? It's bullshit. That was a dandelion in the grass of my life.

Rellöm : Yes, but then you have to keep going. That's what creates art.

Begemann: Maybe I didn't keep going? Dude, I released 450 songs. I was lonely, and it was completely pointless. I've lived in the city since 1982 and always tried to build a scene around me. I wanted to be part of Bohemia. I was alone for so long, and when everyone finally showed up, I was really happy. I blossomed in this community of adventurous, young musicians with a shared fate. And then, all of a sudden, people were being excluded.

Rellöm: When I arrived—that was two years later—I first thought: Shit, all these bands are gone now. FSK were in Hamburg the whole time, and suddenly they weren't there anymore. The Zimmermänner only played at Christmas. And then the bands started singing in English.

B egemann : That's also something I demanded: You want to scare your neighbors? Then you have to speak to them in their own language if you want to see the horror in their faces.

Rellöm : Yes, but I also say: multilingualism. It's not just about German.

But wasn’t that also a common basis of the Hamburg School: the desire to express oneself in the German language?

Rellöm: ( bangs on the table and laughs ) There was no common ground!

How important was the question of success for you? A lot depended on the choice of label. Bernd, you and your band Die Antwort signed directly to a major label.

Be gemann : Yes, I made three industrial records with different bands, but they were all flops. Then I thought to myself: Taking a master tape to a pressing plant and shipping 100 copies somewhere, any idiot can do that. So I released my first solo album on my own: Rothenburgsort Records. Fuck, I was more indie than all of you put together! I wrote and produced my own music, and had my own label. Do I want a medal for that? Kind of. But now I don't have one.

Rellöm : Now stop crying. This is terrible.

Durstewitz : ( in a praising tone ) Bernd, you did a great job!

Be gemann : Or? You could have said that sooner.

Rellöm : I really think “ Recession, Baby!” is great.

Begemann: Yes, everything fit together. I also felt that the record complemented what was out there. The other bands all rocked. I, on the other hand, had made an urban folk album, with light electronic elements. And then there was this wonderful moment when I was marching in a line down the Reeperbahn with Jochen Distelmeyer, Frank Spilker, and others – like the cowboys in "The Wild Bunch." Just then, I was thinking: Now we're all friends, how wonderful! And then it all went downhill. I shouldn't have felt so at home.

Exclusion seemed to happen quickly. Tilman Rossmy told me that it was enough to wear the wrong jacket. And anyone who didn't display the right political views was completely dissed. How did you experience the politicization of the scene?

Rellöm: I thought the politicization was great. But I agree with Bernd that music should transcend politics. Nevertheless, something special can emerge from conflicts. And that's what happened with the coming together of Blumfeld , Die Sterne , and Goldenen Zitronen . And yes: also with Bernd Begemann and all the conflicts that arose. It was all totally exciting for me. And I disagree with Bernd on the point that that was the end. For me, that's when the party really began.

Begemann: The communal movement was over, and the phase of external impact began. I accept that for many, this radical political element was inextricably linked to their artistic work. But when people revel in their memories, when they conjure up their wild revolutionary days and the one moment when they stood on the barricades, then they—like the old '68ers—romanticize the past.

Rellöm : That trivializes it.

Begemann: Rightly so! The politicization consisted largely of rehashing agitprop slogans that were long outdated at the time.

Rellöm: Complete contradiction: Agitprop was great!

But isn’t it legitimate for there to be different aesthetic approaches?

Durstewitz: I'd like to think so too. There should be room for all of these things. But that space simply didn't exist, not even in relation to my own band. Those who didn't write explicitly political lyrics were immediately assumed to be non-political people. For me personally, there's also the female perspective: I often felt like I wasn't taken seriously as a person and as the female member of my band. That bothered me a lot, especially because I was quite political at the time. I was pretty good at Marxism and political theory. But no one was interested in that in the conversations back then.

B egemann : You should have shown more pride in that.

Durstewitz: Yes, but I couldn't. And that's also what I regret in retrospect: that I was so afraid. I wish I had shouted more and spoken my mind. Some fellow musicians just wouldn't look at me.

There's been a lot of discussion recently about the role of women in the scene at that time. Bernd, you criticized Natascha Geier's NDR documentary for omitting influential female protagonists.

Be gemann : Yes, I found that absolutely outrageous. And then they said the Hamburg School was a sausage fest. That's such a falsification of history that I'm salivating.

Rellöm : I would strongly disagree with that.

Begemann: But you have no reason to contradict me. The director only asks her friend and people who had their primary residence in Berlin. She leaves out Ebba, she leaves out Elena Lange, Julia Lübke, and a lot of other women whose music I've heard and spoken to. And then she says there were no women in the scene? That's sexist erasure.

For me, the perspective of a woman sitting at the table would be crucial: Ebba, how did you personally experience that back then?

Durstewitz: As you may have noticed, it's exclusionary in every way. Within our circle of friends in Hamburg, though, not as much as on tour: When I walked into a club, it wasn't me who was asked about the cello's microphone setup, but Jakobus (Durstewitz, née Siebels, now her husband – ed.). Or in conversations with music journalists: Even with a record called "Ebba," where anyone can read who wrote the lyrics, it's Jakobus who's asked, not me. I hated that, of course. But the overriding feeling was disappointment. That discrimination is happening in this environment, in an environment where I thought we had more in common than what divided us.

How do you currently assess the issue of equality in the music industry? Has anything changed in this regard after all these years?

Rellöm: Yes, I think something is happening.

Begemann: My teenage daughter also makes music. She sings and writes the songs herself. And on the contrary, I notice that the guys in her band are totally intimidated. So maybe there needs to be some fine-tuning there so that we're all finally on the same level.

Durstewitz : If we look at it from a societal perspective, we see that discrimination and something like the pay gap still exist. Jakobus and I just found out that he'll receive a much higher pension than I do, even though, unlike me, he's never had a permanent job. We all know there's still a lot to be done. And as far as the music world is concerned, I also think some things have improved. But you have to differentiate: In rap, the question of equality still seems to be an issue.

What are your own plans for the future? Ebba, are you continuing to work on songs with JaKönigJa, or will we be able to see you live again soon?

Durstewitz: No, there aren't any concerts planned at the moment. But we have a ton of material. We'd have to make something out of it first. Whether it can be performed live is another question. I personally would love to be back on stage, though.

Be gemann : Yes, please! I would like to see you anytime and come immediately.

How are things going for you, Knarf? You're still playing concerts regularly. Do you have a new record coming up?

Rellöm: Yes, it has to come back. I just have no idea where the money will come from. We only earn money through the concerts, but I always spend the fee immediately on living expenses. There's never anything left over.

Begemann: The world we were talking about has vanished. We've been completely dispossessed. Our recordings have been taken away from us. And everyone knows that today's generation is no longer interested in perceiving an album as a whole. What used to be popular culture is now 90 percent TikTok.

Rellöm: But you still keep going. And I keep going.

Begemann: Yes, concerts are the best thing ever. I hope I can see you live again soon. And I'll be in awe!

Durstewitz: And when is the joint concert coming up, where everyone will be together again? The final shot on stage with the Golden Lemons, Ted Gaier arm in arm with Bernd Begemann, and everyone around...

Yes, please. And then everyone to the after-show party at the "Mutter."